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[No] 3d Polyobjects

Fri, 30 Dec 2005 08:25:52

Crimson Wizard

on <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.vavoom-engine.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=530">http://www.vavoom-engine.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=530</a><!-- m --> Firebrande wrote:
I don't know if it's possible, but you could even try to make a floor that moves horizontally using polyobjects (I haven't made any tests for this, but I'm sure it could be done somehow)
I've tried and came to a thought that it is impossible. The problem is that polyobject is build based on a sequence of solid walls, a "column", and of course you can't make that column 3d, because it is not a sector (polyobject made using 2-sided lines sector makes game crash as soon as it starts to move). I suppose that polyobject stuff, if it is just possible, needs some upgrade, so it may allow full 3d forms. I may also propose to make possible polyobjects exist in non-convex subsectors. One of the worst limitations in Hexen about polies was that you can't make it move along S bend sub-sector, because when poly turn around a corner it fails to render properly (become almost invisible). I am not sure if it all is ever possible, but if it is, it would be great.
Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:14:26

Firebrand

Heh! I think it's possible with the current implementation, it would be cool to see your test for it (hint, hint <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->), it might be a problem with how you are implementing it (maybe, not really sure <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->), I remember I came with an idea to start building those 3d plats when I built a map for Korax Arena which was the first one I made using 3d plats, then I tought on the 3d polyobjects, you might need to assign the 3d floor special to the polyobject itself (it doesn't matters if it's double sided or not), and build a dummy sector with enough space to make it move on it, then it should make the 3d floor move in a horizontal way, it might be somewhat difficult to make the path perfect for the 3d platform, but it should be possible to build such a thing. I still want to make a test map for this, but right now I'm kinda busy with KA and other project, heh! I'll try to make it ASAP, it would also be cool to make a couple of tutorials of advanced structures using Vavoom's features, wouldn't it? heh!
Fri, 30 Dec 2005 18:54:43

Crimson Wizard

I am not sure I understood your properly. Please, explain this with more details.
Mon, 02 Jan 2006 18:06:55

Firebrand

I have made a test wad for this feature, I don't know why, but polyobjects that are double sided just make the engine freeze when loading the map, also, I don't know exactly, but polyobjects don't seem to handle sector heights for the start spots neither, so it makes implementation difficult for this, I'm posting my example here Crimson Wizard, you can check it out and try to implement the 3d poly or discuss further your ideas, maybe we can together try to find if this works or not, heh! <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->.
Mon, 02 Jan 2006 22:59:04

Nuxius

I know that Enjay had found a way to make a polyobject that was a two sided linedef. Two problems with it, as far as what you're wanting to use it for goes: 1)It only works in ZDoom and it's various spin-offs. I tried it in Vavoom, and it doesn't work (shows nothing where the polyobject is supposed to be). 2)It only works with a single two sided linedef. It's nothing you can walk on top of or anything. It's only real use is for having gates that open and the like. However you might be able to do it with models. Problem is, I don't know what level of interaction Vavoom allows with it's models. A good quick test would be to model some crates and stick it in a sector that scrolls objects.
Tue, 03 Jan 2006 12:29:07

Crimson Wizard

The last one was interesting. Yes, when I was planning some of my future maps for Hexen long time ago (I haven't heard about Vavoom then), I wanted to have poly that move along some very complex curve, and I found it impossible to do, since poly fails to render when it passes the first corner. Then I thought that it may be possible to take some Thing, a common sprite maybe, and use it as a poly (I needed a column actually). Afterwards, when I changed to JHexen, and then, finally, - to Vavoom, where you can create your own things, I have come to conclusion that it is absolutely possible. But, saying honestly, I do not like it, because I do not want to subst normal 3d object with a flat sprite. Using 3d model - is a good idea. Bad thing is that I have no skills and knowledge to create such. Anyway, if one decides to use this, it is not a problem at all. You may just create a new thing class and program it so it can be manipulated using some new ACS'es. (I have already tried similar features in some other case.)
Tue, 03 Jan 2006 12:37:44

Crimson Wizard

[quote="Firebrand":1c7d1jqd]I have made a test wad for this feature, I don't know why, but polyobjects that are double sided just make the engine freeze when loading the map, also, I don't know exactly, but polyobjects don't seem to handle sector heights for the start spots neither, so it makes implementation difficult for this, I'm posting my example here Crimson Wizard, you can check it out and try to implement the 3d poly or discuss further your ideas, maybe we can together try to find if this works or not, heh! <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->. You know, Firebrand, after a minute of examining your map I came to thought that these two blocks hanging in the air are not actually polyobjects, but just a plain 3dfloors. Polys stay where you placed them - in the dummy sector. And they look like normal solid polys - stretched from floor to ceiling. EDIT: Heh! I managed to get a poly that LOOKS like 3d, (but it doesn't act as 3d). I created a new subsector in the main map sector (where player is), tagged it with tag 6 (so it appear 3d floor), then moved there a start spot for the 1st polyobject. When I ran map a suprising thing happened. A poly appeared to be "cut" - without upper partition. It looked like a column, that stretch from floor, but didn't reach ceiling. And render normally! It even moved normally. It stayed normally until I walked up the big at the platform and jumped at the new subsector (in which start spot is placed). Then, a lower part of poly render thru floor. Also, you cannot walk above that poly. Its upper partition is just invisible, but still exist. EDIT: Ok, I now know how to create a simulation of 3d platform that stands on floor (and which cannot be walked above, a pity... <!-- s:( --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" /><!-- s:( -->). 1) Create a normal poly, just as you always do. 2) create in your map a subsector for that poly. 3) make that subsector 3dfloor, just always. Its lower surface (actually a ceiling) will "cut" the poly's upper partition. You may make it absolutely thin (a 1 pt of height maybe). 4) make the sector with 3dfloor linedef (sector which defines 3floor properties) absolutely invisible - remove all wall textures and floor textures as well (write "-" symbol in all textures). 5) Result: you receive a block, that stands on floor but do not touch ceiling (of height you choose). You can use it as all other polys. The only bad thing is that you cannot jump on it since it has invisible, but solid walls stretching up to ceiling. NOTE: I tried to make several 3dfloors in a subsector, so it have a number of "levels", and put poly's start spot at some height, thinking that this will make poly be uprised above floor as well. Unfortunately this didn't happened. PS. By the way, I just realised you can create invisible 3dfloors and this does not cause any rendering problems <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Imaging something like invisible bridges! PPS. Can anybody explain, where I can place my test/demo maps for download? For some reason I cannot edit my website currently, so I cannot publish it there.
Tue, 03 Jan 2006 17:32:39

Firebrand

Sounds very interesting Crimson Wizard! I would like to see your demo maps, you could send them to me by mail or post them as an attachment here, if you want I can host them for you in my web space and post links here for everyone to download, I have come to the conclusion with my test that it might not be possible to make 3d polys with the current implementation, since they seem to be copied to occupy the whole sector height (from floor to ceiling), and there is no easy way to modify this (at least, not for me with my current programming skills, heh!). Janis, do you think there is a way that these could be implemented somehow??
Tue, 03 Jan 2006 19:22:46

Janis Legzdinsh

Current;y I don't see an easy way somehing like this can be implemented.
Wed, 04 Jan 2006 11:00:18

Crimson Wizard

Well, here is the map. It's nothing serious, really. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.shadowweaver.narod.ru/unheir/downloads/3dtest2.wad">http://www.shadowweaver.narod.ru/unheir ... dtest2.wad</a><!-- m --> (8,8 kbs) I wish also to add, that , as I realised, that feature that I've described above is only possible in Vavoom v.1.19. Now I remember trying to make the same earlier with version 1.18, but visual effect was different - it didn't cut the poly. As I understand this, general problem in making 3d poly is an inability to make poly include a sector. It includes only solid lines, without inner contents. So, if one want to create a 3d poly he must make Hexen (Vavoom) engine be able to create polies on the base of full sectors. A for me, I can't, because I just do not know how all these 3d-geometry engines work. Sorry. <!-- s:oops: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_redface.gif" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed" /><!-- s:oops: -->
Wed, 04 Jan 2006 14:41:55

Nuxius

A couple of notes for anyone who downloads that: 1) It's for Hexen, not Doom. (I switched all of the textures out so I could get it to work in Doom though, I'll upload it sometime). 2) Whatever you do, DO NOT FIRE YOUR WEAPON at the polyobjects. Doing so will cause Vavoom to eat up all of your resources and freeze up. You have been warned. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> That's too bad on that last part, as it makes it where these can't be used in a map at all. As is, I think it's a cool "proof of concept, though". <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> Nice work, Crimson.
Wed, 04 Jan 2006 17:00:48

Firebrand

[quote="Crimson Wizard":o2kjaviq]A for me, I can't, because I just do not know how all these 3d-geometry engines work. Sorry. <!-- s:oops: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_redface.gif" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed" /><!-- s:oops: --> Heh! It's the same for me, I'm starting to get how normal plats and sectors work, but it's still a large way to understand polys <!-- s:oops: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_redface.gif" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed" /><!-- s:oops: --> .
Wed, 04 Jan 2006 18:27:33

Crimson Wizard

[quote="Firebrand":zls1ba1h]Heh! It's the same for me, I'm starting to get how normal plats and sectors work, but it's still a large way to understand polys Err... <!-- s:? --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" /><!-- s:? --> Actually I said that meaning engine code - the program itself. (I DO know how polys work from the point of view of level designer). Are you meaning the same thing too? [quote="Nuxius":zls1ba1h]Whatever you do, DO NOT FIRE YOUR WEAPON at the polyobjects. Doing so will cause Vavoom to eat up all of your resources and freeze up. WHAT??? <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> No it DOES NOT!!! Maybe something wrong with your Vavoom version?
Mon, 20 Oct 2008 08:56:09

Janis Legzdinsh

The short answer to this request is no.

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